Welcome, Sanderfans and Cosmere Chickens, to the read-along discussion of the preview chapters of Wind and Truth! If you haven’t already read the Preface and Prologue, we highly recommend that you do so now. We’re changing things up a bit from our usual reread article format, and beta readers Paige Vest, Lyndsey Luther, and Drew McCaffrey will each have their own commentary section wherein we discuss the chapters each week.
Lyn: I would like to mention one little thing about that. You may think that since we’re beta readers and hence have read the whole book, we’re going to drop hints or spoilers for things further along. Fear not, good readers. We actually go to great lengths to not do that, and may even allude to some misleading theories or red herrings in order to avoid spoiling the story. So if you see us entertaining a “what if?” and think to yourself, “ah hah!” Well… you might want to think again. We’re sneaky like that.
Paige: We are sneaky like that! ::giggles::
So let’s get to it. If you’re a bit fuzzy on the events of Rhythm of War and want to catch up before diving into the prologue here, check out Paige’s “Quick and Dirty Recap of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive to Date!”
We’ll have a new read-along article every Monday, publishing in tandem with the chapter(s) that are being released each week, so that you can read the new material and jump in here to check out our commentary and join the discussion!
Reminder: We’ll be discussing spoilers for the entire Cosmere up until now. If you haven’t read ALL of the published entries in the Cosmere, especially The Stormlight Archive (including novellas), you may want to wait to join us until you’re done.
Before we dive in, allow us to introduce ourselves if you don’t already know us!
Paige: Hey, Sanderfans! I’ve been a fan of Brandon since it was announced he’d be finishing Robert Jordan’s The Wheel of Time. I picked up Elantris and Mistborn: The Final Empire because those were his only books that had been released at that time. I loved his writing immediately and haven’t looked back! (Except to work on reread articles, of course.) Peter Ahlstrom very kindly invited me to the Sanderson beta reader team in 2015 and I participated in my first beta read, Edgedancer, in 2016. My day job is working for the New Mexico Department of Public Safety, namely for the State Police. I went back to school four years ago and am still working on my first BA (though I have 3 AAs and 2 Certificates!). I enjoy writing flash fiction, short stories, and novels, though I don’t have anything beyond what I’ve self-pubbed, at this time. I do have two full novels and a ton of flash fiction available at my Patreon, and I’m pretty cheap! Erm… well, you know what I mean. You can also find several anthologies with some of my flashes and shorts at Amazon.
Lyndsey: Greetings, lovely Cosmere Chickens! I’ve been a beta reader for Brandon since Words of Radiance, and even have the incredible honor of having a character named after me (Lyn of Bridge 4). In the real world, I’m a fantasy novelist myself (you can find my debut novel here in print, ebook, or audio format) as well as a professional actress, seamstress, woodworker, and a ton of other weird and creative things that together almost earn me enough to provide for my family here in rural Connecticut.
Drew: Hello there! Like Paige and Lyn, I’m a beta reader for Brandon, though not quite with the same tenure. I started in 2018, and my first Cosmere beta read was Rhythm of War. (Some of you might actually know me better from the Wheel of Time fandom, where I’ve been active in various circles for decades.) I’m a fantasy writer, with short stories available on Kindle, and reviewer with thoughts on the Inking Out Loud podcast.
Paige’s Summary and Commentary
In the Prologue of Wind and Truth, we see the night of Gavilar’s assassination from Gavilar’s own point of view. The scene takes place seven and a half years before the events of Wind and Truth. Gavilar has a series of meetings: first with Thaidakar, then Restares and Nale; Navani pops in; then a recruiting meeting for the Sons of Honor, where he meets Taravangian; and finally, Eshonai, to seal his fate. He talks with the Stormfather quite a lot in between these meetings, but then Szeth shows up and, well, we know how that goes.
Each of the prologues in The Stormlight Archive has made me dislike Gavilar more and more, and this one is no different. He’s arrogant, with his thoughts of becoming a god, the Stormfather’s champion, a Herald, immortal. Being a Highprince wasn’t enough. Being the king isn’t enough. He’s just not satisfied and wants to be a god. One thing that I do enjoy, however, is how he repeatedly tries to speak the Words he’s looking for throughout the prologue and how the Stormfather repeatedly rejects him. Thanks for that, Brandon. ::chuckles::
We see Gavilar’s thoughts and how he deceives everyone, even the Stormfather, who chats with him throughout this entire prologue. He lets the Stormfather think that he wants to become his champion when he really just wants to start a Desolation so that he can take the place of a Herald, specifically Taln. ::laughs hysterically:: Taln… of all the Heralds to replace, he thinks he’ll replace Taln. Is that because Taln was just a common man prior to the Oathpact? Little does Gavilar know that Taln was the best of all the Heralds.
Gavilar wouldn’t allow himself to be tortured on Braize between Desolations, however. Oh, no, not our very-full-of-himself king of Alethkar. Gavilar would give in immediately, again and again, and come back to rule Roshar as an immortal. The Stormfather is appalled by this idea and says that it would mean eternal war, but Gavilar, it turns out, is A-okay with eternal war!
The Stormfather isn’t pleased with Gavilar and regrets choosing him, which frankly shows some smarts on the Stormfather’s part! Suddenly the Stormfather cries out in agony and says that a Herald has died and that he’s not ready. I know that many people have a theory on who this Herald is, so tell us what your thoughts are in the comments!
The Stormfather then goes from chatting in italics to ALL CAPS (I don’t know why this is, but it’s ominous). He bids farewell to Gavilar, telling him that he won’t stop what’s coming. Of course, what’s coming is the assassin in white and it’s interesting to think that the Stormfather might have been able to stop it, had he wanted to.
The part of this prologue that struck me the most, I think, is knowing that the Stormfather can lie. Despite this betrayal, as he is dying, Gavilar tries to give the Stormfather a Voidlight sphere to give to Dalinar (though Szeth believes Gavilar is talking to him, and he takes the sphere and writes that Dalinar must find the most important words a man can say). Of course, the Stormfather is like, there’s no way I am picking anyone from your family again, you bunch of nutters! Though, of course, he eventually changes his mind. I wonder why he chose Dalinar after all? What do you think, Sanderfans?
There are other conversations that Gavilar has that night, prior to Szeth’s arrival, which are also worthy of discussion. The prologue skims over Gavilar’s chats with Navani and Eshonai, which we’ve seen already but which also would have been interesting to revisit from Gavilar’s point of view. He’s his usual arrogant self during both of them. Though he does think about how beautiful Navani is, especially when she’s angry, he doesn’t let that interfere with his plans for grandeur. Then, with Eshonai, he sends her on her way with a Voidlight gemstone thinking he’s manipulated her and, by extension, all of the Parshendi, but when she goes straight to the Five, they decide to kill him ASAP. Certainly not his smartest move.
But I like his interaction with Thaidakar, “The Lord of Scars.” ::nudge:: He wants Gavilar to deliver Restares to him and we learn that it’s because Restares knows where Ba-Ado-Mishram has been secreted away in her gemstone prison. The Stormfather reveals that her capture essentially created the parshmen, but what would Thaidakar want with Mishram? What’s also cool about this interaction is that Thaidakar is talking to Gavilar through a seon. Of course, we saw a seon in Rhythm of War… Mraize gave one to Shallan so she could offer updates on her search for Restares/Kelek at Lasting Integrity. Might be the same saucy little seon. But what I find cool is that Thaidakar is likely not on Roshar and is communicating via seon from Scadrial. Seons are seriously awesome, y’all!
Aside from Thaidakar, Gavilar meets with a couple of Heralds, though he doesn’t believe them to be Heralds until the Stormfather confirms that Restares is a Herald. He doesn’t tell Gavilar which one, though. We know Restares is actually Kelek, and he’s with Nale, who he names in front of Gavilar. Kelek also tells Gavilar that another of them is in the palace, though he doesn’t name Shalash. We already knew that, of course. She’s out there destroying her likenesses, as Ash is wont to do.
Nale doesn’t seem to care for Gavilar but then, does Nale care for anyone? Of course, he’s all about the law and, as Gavilar is king of Alethkar, he’s essentially the law in Alethkar, so Nale doesn’t give him grief about wanting to bring back the Voidbringers. Though Kelek does say something I find redeeming for him: He says that he “wanted the honor of men to return” and that he wanted “to explore what made those Radiants so grand.” He then says that he personally made things go wrong. Hmm… Primarily, poor Kelek is just desperate to get off Roshar, and we know that he’s still trying to attain that goal years later when Shallan and Adolin find him in Lasting Integrity.
One very interesting revelation—a tidbit that made my eyebrows shoot up during the beta read last year—was that Vasher is working with Gavilar to make Voidlight. Gavilar gloats while thinking about how he has a “secret scholar”: “A master of all things scientific. A man who was neither Ghostblood nor Son of Honor. A man from another world.” This lowers Vasher in my estimation a bit, if I’m being honest. ::sniff::
Gavilar also meets with Amaram and several Sons of Honor recruits, one of whom is none other than Taravangian, who it seems was shopping around for a Secret Society before he created his own. I was surprised that Gavilar kind of opened up to Taravangian and told him about the Everstorm and the “Night of Sorrows.” And we discover why Taravangian started his death rattle collections in Kharbranth… because his mother spoke Gavilar’s words in a death rattle ten years prior to that night. One fun thing about this meeting is that Amaram says his efforts with Jasnah didn’t go well, and it made me laugh, thinking of the way she scathingly dressed him down in Oathbringer. ::giggles::
So… questions and speculation time. Probably more questions than speculation, knowing me!
- What other lies might the Stormfather have told Gavilar? And has he also lied to Dalinar? What do you think he might have lied to Dalinar about, Sanderfans?
- What does Kelsier want with Mishram? Maybe he thinks she can bestow power on him… that would be interesting. The Ghostbloods are a far-reaching society with their fingers in a lot of pies, so there could be any number of reasons why Kelsier wants Mishram, I suppose.
- How exactly did Kelek make things go wrong? I don’t know if he did something personally to cause the Recreance or if he just thinks he did, but he definitely feels responsible.
- What is the Night of Sorrows? I wonder if it refers to the contest of champions between Odium and Dalinar. It’s always spoken of along with the Everstorm and the True Desolation, but there’s no definitive answer. I honestly don’t know if we have a word of Brandon about it, I couldn’t find one. Does anybody know?
- How did Vasher come to be creating Voidlight for Gavilar? He was obviously already Zahel, the expert warrior, training the princes in combat. Why would he tell Gavilar his real name and why/how is he making Voidlight?
What do you find interesting about this prologue, Sanderfans? Tell us in the comments and we can keep the discussion going!
Lyndsey’s Commentary: Characters and Relationships
I have to admit, when I saw that the prologue was from Gavilar’s POV my first reaction was “ugh.” It makes sense from a story standpoint, of course. All of the previous ones were different perspectives on the same event and Gavilar is the main player in that event, so it does make sense that we’d finally see through his eyes for this, the final book in the first five-book arc. I have to imagine that the prologue chapters of the back half of the Stormlight Archive will center on a different event, and I’m deathly curious to see what that event winds up being. I doubt it will be anything we can guess at this point, unless maybe it’s something big that happens at the conclusion of this book.
Also interesting to note is that the previous POV characters (with the possible exception of Szeth) all had some sort of character arc in that specific book, so we could use the prologue to draw some conclusions about the starting points of their narratives. However… we know that Gavilar’s not going anywhere after this. His POV is being used more as a lens to show us the different Big Players in the Cosmere, and open up our minds to what’s really been going on behind the scenes. As such, I think it’s safe to say that we can expect this book to be incredibly lore-heavy.
Let’s delve a little into the different characters introduced in this chapter, and what their relationships/arcs may tell us…
Gavilar
Gavilar is SUCH an unlikable character. Not only does he mistreat his wife (as we’ve seen in the prologue of Rhythm of War) and his daughter (there’s some evidence in her POV sections of being imprisoned as a child, not to mention him trying to marry her off to that snake Amaram), he’s trying to mislead a magical being that shares his thoughts to some degree. So he’s opportunistic, manipulative, AND stupid.
His thoughts about his brother Dalinar really highlight his arrogance. The only positives he comes up with are things that he can use to further his own ambitions. He discounts everything about Dalinar except for Dalinar’s talent at war, and rather than try to help him with his alcoholism, he facilitates it.
His relationship with Navani isn’t much better. While we do see some snippets of humanity in his thoughts about her, he quickly squashes them, as he believes that he needs to distance himself from “mortal feelings.” Whether this would be an effective strategy for warding off the insanity inherent in immortality, we’ll never know, as he doesn’t live to see his plan put into motion.
I’m not sure if we can categorize Gavilar’s relationship with Taravangian as anything more than an acquaintance; and catastrophically poor judgment of character, on Gavilar’s part. That’s a running theme with him: He’s incapable of recognizing the parts of other people that are worthy of praise and therefore, he’s unable to tap into or foster those strengths into something more. And that’s his biggest failure, ultimately.
Dalinar
A reminder of the fact that at this point in the story, Dalinar is still deep in the throes of alcoholism, PTSD, and depression. He’s murdered his own wife, is keeping that fact from his sons, and isn’t treating them particularly well, either. He’s a broken man, through and through, and hasn’t yet made his journey to the Nightwatcher to remove his traumatic memories. It’s hard to see glimmers of the noble man we come to know in The Way of Kings in this broken husk.
Kelsier
If you didn’t know before now that Thaidakar was our old friend Kel from Mistborn… well… surprise! There’s always another secret.
“You can’t ‘grow beyond’ the tide, Gavilar,” Thaidakar replied. “You swim with it or get swept away.”
Kel would know this better than most, given his failed revolt against the Lord Ruler. In a way, it’s almost nice to see him voicing this. Growth, much? (But if he’s not fighting against the tide, what is he doing?)
We know that he was chilling out in the Cognitive Realm for a while before finding a physical body to inhabit on Scadrial, but we’re still pretty hazy on what his goals are, and how his character has changed. Without inner POV chapters from him, all we have are our best guesses.
The big question is… what does Kel want with Restares? He IS a noble, but Kel’s grown past that at this point. He has bigger plans than just overthrowing a ruling class. Or at least, we can assume he does… It must have something to do with the fact that Restares is actually a Herald, but… what?
Nale
He wasn’t a man who gave way. Not to wind, not to storm, and most certainly not to other people.
Not much more to say about him than that, eh? Sums him up quite nicely. Nale has never been one to see the grey in a situation; it’s always either black or white, crime or law. We know that Nale is hell-bent against another Desolation happening and is willing to do pretty much anything to avoid it. Will we see some growth in him over the course of this book? Or is he destined to die? Will he just remain the same, unchanging forever? Time will tell…
Restares (aka Kelek)
“I wanted the honor of men to return! I wanted us to explore what made those Radiants so grand. Before things went wrong.” He ran his hand through his thinning hair. “Before… I made them… go wrong…”
Another instance of a Herald gone insane? Or is there more to this quote? We do know that after this point in the story, he heads off to Lasting Integrity and remains there until Adolin’s trial in Rhythm of War.
Stormfather
The little man didn’t know Gavilar had become familiar with the Stormfather, who had told him the truth: that the Heralds had all long since died and gone to Braize.
What reason does he have to lie? There’s a lot of really interesting information in here that can be read between the lines in their conversation.
Vasher
He had his scholar, though in truth Gavilar was baffled by the Light he was creating… Light that could somehow kill the Voidbringers? How had Vasher made—
More importantly, why the heck is VASHER helping Gavilar? What possible motivation could he have had? We currently don’t know much about Vasher post-Warbreaker, or why he showed up here on Roshar in the first place.
Drew’s Commentary: Invested Arts and Theories
This prologue has sure been a long time in coming, hasn’t it? Ever since the early days of The Stormlight Archive, theories have been flying hot and fast about what actually happened on the night of Gavilar’s assassination—and now we finally know the whole story. (Well, maybe.) (Mostly.)
“Do not get ahead of yourself, Gavilar. Find the Words.”
One of the biggest and longest-running theories out there is that Gavilar didn’t actually die, but rather became a Cognitive Shadow (like a Herald). And lo and behold, here he is trying to do exactly that… until he doesn’t. He dies with the Stormfather looming over him, telling him that he messed up, that he didn’t understand the assignment.
So that sure feels like a nail in the coffin for the Gavilar-Will-Be-Odium’s-Champion theory, doesn’t it?
But don’t you worry, merry theorists and Arcanists, because while this may have put an end to one big theory, the prologue opened up a few entirely new cans of worms: What’s going on with the Stormfather here? Is it even the Stormfather at all? And what’s the deal with a Herald dying on the night of the feast?
“Died?” Gavilar said. “Died. You said they were already dead! You said they were in Damnation!”
This sequence makes it clear that this entity calling itself the Stormfather is perfectly capable of lying to Gavilar, and in fact seems happy to do so for its own reasons. If it is the real Stormfather… whoo boy, that opens up whole worlds of potential complications, given his bond and relationship with Dalinar.
“Not him. I’m sorry, Gavilar. I made that mistake once. I will never trust your family again.”
The final interchange between Gavilar and the Stormfather is particularly fascinating here, since the Stormfather seems to tell Gavilar that he’s done with the Kholin family. Is this another lie, or did he change his mind? If it’s not the Stormfather at all, who is it? Some common opinions include Ishar, the mad Herald, or possibly one of the Unmade, here to cause chaos and get the Desolations up and running again.
“A Herald… a Herald has died… No. I am not ready… The Oathpact… No! They mustn’t see. They mustn’t know…”
If there’s one theory that’s taken the Cosmere fandom by storm in the last year or so, it’s that Shallan’s mother is the Herald Chanarach. Though we don’t know if the exact dates line up, we do know that Shallan killed her mother around the time of Gavilar’s feast. The red hair, the infamous “The world ended, and Shallan was to blame” line, the Word of Brandon that Taln never broke… there is a bunch of steam picking up around this one.
But this is Brandon Sanderson we’re talking about here. The obvious answer isn’t always the right one, and there’s still so much we don’t know about the Heralds. And this is far from the only point of interest in this prologue when it comes to the magic of the Cosmere.
Thaidakar was made entirely of softly glowing, white-blue light. He was younger than Gavilar had imagined—in his middle years, not the wizened elder he’d seemed. He had a large spike, also blue, through one eye. The point jutted out the back of his skull.
There was a blink-and-you’ll-miss-it nod to the identity of Thaidakar at the end of Rhythm of War, but here we see it in full glory: Thaidakar is none other than Kelsier himself, back from the dead after the events of Mistborn Era 1, and getting his fingers in all sorts of pies outside of Scadrial.
Given how this book is coming right out with such a major Cosmere crossover as Kelsier—even if just in magic hologram form—and showing other interplanetary developments like the Seon and the movement of Investiture between worlds, I think we all need to buckle up. Brandon said “the gloves are coming off” with The Lost Metal, and now we’re heading into his biggest book yet.
We’ll be keeping an eye on the comment sections here on the site and on various social media platforms and may include some of your comments/speculation (with attribution) on future weeks’ articles! Keep the conversation going, and PLEASE remember to spoiler-tag your comments on social media to help preserve the surprise for those who choose to wait for the full release. See you next Monday with chapters one and two!
Vasher was working for Gavilar and was potentially Galivar’s secret Scholar?!?! I dont remember that from when this chapter was first revealed a couple months ago…holy cow
Thanks guys! I love the discussion as we read!
I can’t help but wonder if that’s NOT the Stormfather. Did he ever appear to Dalinar shimmering like that, kind of in a human shape? Could it actually be an Unmade or even Odium? He seems to see a lot of potential for a champion in Dalinar.
He has, in Rhythm of War, but I agree this is someone pretending to be the Stormfather. He can read minds or at least interpret Gavilair’s motives to become a Herald. As well as casting beings into visions — so far only shards have been able to do this — additionally he taunts Gavilair just before his death by saying a Herald has died. This is something Gavilair is hoping will happen so he can take up the mantle of immortality, so close. But we all know a Herald had not died 7 years ago.
There was one bit that I think highlights this best. I was under the assumption that the Stormfather was blind to events outside the storm, but he signaled that an assassin was coming. Something a shard would likely be able to see, but the other Spren need line of sight to identify.
My best guess is this is the power of Odium acting without its vessel.
He does appear to Dalinar in that form, yes.
I’m going to call it now. This false Stormfather is actually Ishar pretending. It does imply that Ishar had his Oathblade quite a bit earlier than one might expect, but Szeth is the only character with info relating to that, and he certainly wouldn’t know at this point.
I think it Honour himself, weak and dying. And he vowed not to choose Kohlin family. The Stormfather may not be fully sentient yet.
(Oops. Did not mean to reply to this. Agree that Stormfather is Ishar – I think we’re seeing that he was more sane than the other Heralds until Gavilar died and he lost his sanity, turning into Tezim)
Here’s my theory on Kelek and the Recreance:
The Heralds worked with Ba Ado Mishram to bring about the False Desolation because they thought it would help them for some reason (maybe to leave the system? Maybe to die for good? Or maybe because they feared Honor’s death could cause a problem?). BAM was Connected with the Singers by Ishar, using his Honorblade, which is what allowed the Singers to obtain their forms of power. But it backfired, because BAM lost control, and the Desolation was not ending, so it was leading to eternal war. As a result, the Heralds decided that they needed to undo what they did, thus the “betrayal” that Kelek references.
We knew that they needed a Bondsmith to capture Ba Ado Mishram… but it could not have been Melishi, because Melishi had unbonded The Sibling before the capture of Ba Ado Mishram. If Melishi had not, The Sibling would be a deadeye. So how else could they use Bondsmith powers? Ishar did that, using his Honorblade. Because it was using Bondsmith powers unchained by Honor, it did too much, and severing the Connection between BAM and Singers not only destroyed the Connection and Identity of the Singers (leading to the slaveform), but also broke the spirit web of things across Roshar. In fact, I am starting to believe that the strike mission and the capture of Ba Ado Mishram happened in Stormseat (Narak) and somehow the capture is what lead to the shattering of the Shattered Plains.
I think that the capture of Ba Ado Mishram is what directly caused the Heralds’ insanity. The prologue tells us that the Heralds started going insane about two thousand years after Aharietiam. Which was when the Recreance occurred.
I also think the effects of the capture of Ba Ado Mishram (slaveform, primarily, but maybe others like the shattering of the Shattered Plains?) were recognized by the Radiants at the time, who learned from Honor or the Stormfather shortly before Honor’s death that the humans were the original invaders and that unchained surges caused the destruction of Ashyn. I think the Recreance occurred because the Radiants feared that if Honor died, their powers would become unchained from the Oaths and destroy the world.
I think the problem with it having been Ishar’s Honorblade is that Szeth gets upset at Ishar for having stolen the Honorblade from his father, so that theft is relatively recent. So unless Ishar took the Blade and then gave it back for a few millennia (which doesn’t seem very like him) that part doesn’t fit.
The Recreance was 2500 years before the Prologue. We know that the Heralds abandoned the Blades at Aharietiam (4500 years earlier), but we don’t know that they never took them up. We also don’t know when the Shin officially took control of them. That is a lot of history where we just… don’t know what was happening.
It’s definitely just the regular Stormfather. There’s no reason to think it’s not. We’ve seen the Stormfather lie to Dalinar, or at least say what he feels. Like when he says the Sibling is definitely dead and can never come back.
It’s not the stormfather. the stormfather would never mention the “failings of honor’ that is too out of character for him. He also doesn’t sound like the stormfather. he’s too human sounding and too sly. there is a difference of “the sibling is dead, leave her alone” which is trying to brush something off than saying ‘the hearlds are defintely dead galivar, don’t worry about it.
If you go back and look at the actual text, you will see the Stormfather uses 2 different fonts. At first I thought this was a formatting issue, but then someone else pointed it out as well.
I wonder if we have both the Stormfather and the Fake!Stromfather communicating with Gavilar at the same time, but he is in such a manic state, he cannot tell/recognize the difference and thinks it is only 1 entity.
So I am slowly leaning more towards the Fake!Stormfather theory, but with a caveat!
No, that’s just like when someone is emphasizing one part of the sentence. See, two different fonts.
It’s just Stormdaddy.
If it is in fact a herald masquerading as the stormfather, it would also explain how he knew a herald died as they are all tied together.
How would the stormfather know that a herald had been killed otherwise?
He is also all that remains of Honor, who first forged the Oathpact. And he is the Spren of Oaths and bonds. He is the storm, and he is millennia old. He has abilities and Connections to the planet we’ve only seen hinted at. Why wouldn’t he know when a Herald has been killed? Syl is able to sense random things all the time in the books. Why should she be able to sense nearby voidspren?
I’m not convinced that The Stormfather did directly lie to Gavilar.
“The little man didn’t know Gavilar had become familiar with the Stormfather, who had told him the truth: that the Heralds had all long since died and gone to Braize.”
This isn’t a lie, in the past they did die and go to Braize, many times.
‘“Died?” Gavilar said. “Died. You said they were already dead! You said they were in Damnation!”’
This doesn’t strike me as the stormfather telling a lie, but Gavilar misunderstanding the situation. There is a herald in Damnation right now. They have died in the past and gone to Braize/Damnation. Maybe the stormfather doesn’t consider the heralds after their return to be truly alive.
Whatever the truth I’m excited to find out if it was a lie, a half-truth, a lie by omission, or if lying was the most honorable thing… or something else.
Like an Aes Sedai – the truth you hear isn’t necessarily the truth they told
eh, I’d still call that a lie, tbh. Conversation doesn’t work by strict rules like that.
Nice job, y’all!
Something that caught my attention is that Seons are apparently capable of FTL communication. We know they can travel off-planet through some quirk of Selish Investiture, and communicate between the Cognitive and Physical Realms, but FTL communication is something new that is likely to be relevant as the Cosmere story unfolds.
My free-flowing thoughts, in a somewhat coherent structure:
The long adventure has just begun, I am excited to see where this takes us and what questions are finally answered (and if more questions are answered than new ones created!).
“Then the heralds are ten fools!” Paraphrased from gavliar
“Who are you?” “The biggest fool of them all” – the storm father
Keep in mind, Vasher isn’t creating Voidlight. Either he or Gavilar got Voidlight from the Everstorm in shadesmar, and brought it over. Then he used it to create Anti-Voidlight. Even more interesting.
I’m holding off on letting this affect my view of Vasher, because I’m loathe to take Gavilar’s word on pretty much anything. I’d like confirmation that their relationship is what Gavilar believes it to be before I tar him. After all, he was wrong about his relationship with pretty much every single other person he spoke with that night.
…Failed revolt against the Lord Ruler? I don’t recall it failing.
Drew: Yes. This is the Stormfather. Almost every revision from the previously released version seems designed to address the notion that this wasn’t the Stormfather. It is.
My best guess is that the italicized Stormfather speech is used during his initial bond with Gavilar prior to Gavilar saying the first ideal. Speaking through the Connection into his mind.
The bolded and capitalized speech would then be after he has severed that weak bond and is instead using the shardic Connection to speak into Gavilar’s mind, where he sounds more like a storm as reported by other characters the Stormfather does this with.
Yep, I’d say the italicized text reflects a more personal dialogue between the two because of their bond, as you mentioned. Then, when he unbinds him, the text shifts to all caps, representing a more formal tone, highlighting the separation of power differentials—deity vs. mortal, etc.
Ooo interesting theory!
Interesting.
I had not thought of it that way.
While I agree it is likely Vasher. I think it’s kind of spoilery to say it is Vasher he is referring to at this point.
He mentions Vasher by name in the text
It’s interesting to note that in the last version of this chapter we saw, Stormfather never mentioned Gavilar becoming a “champion,” only a Herald. I’m not sure exactly what this entails, but I do think Stormfather was originally planning on making Gavilar a Herald because Brandon probably wouldn’t fully change such a major part of the story after posting a chapter hinting at it online.
Nah he was just lying.
I’m interested to find out why Vasher gave his real name rather than just going by Zahel, it makes sense for him to be interested in moving Light offworld, and that he’d be helping a Kholin since he’s one of their ardents, but giving away his name seems strange.
New addition to the stormfaker theorie is the use of “boon” from him which was not present in the last version from few month back.
Sooo.. Is Cultivation and her old magic involved ?
Boon is also just an archaic word for gift or favour. Cultivation doesn’t hold copyright on it.
I believe it can’t be the real stormfather because of this part:
“Give it to me,” Gavilar said. “Now. Make me a Herald. I need it.”
The Stormfather turned a shimmering head in his direction. That was almost them.
“What, those?” Gavilar said. “A demand?”
It is not even remotely what the words should be… also mentioned that it is not the words but the intent. It makes me think of how Odium is “Passion” and not really hate, in his words. So I’m leaning towards Odium or someone close… what about some other voidspren similar to Ulim? (The one that bonded venli)
You’re making the same mistake as Gavilar, which is odd since you’re even pointing out what the mistake is.
You’re right, it isn’t the verbatim sentence. But that’s not the part that matters. It’s the feeling behind them. Stormdaddy even outright says, the right words are in the book, but you’ll never guess them just by saying random things. Gavilar could read the entire book aloud and it would never work, because saying it just because you’re trying to find a password is entirely wrong.
The reason Gavilar’s word’s were “almost them” the one time was, because for the first time he was saying something and meaning it. He was being honest and direct. He was speaking from his heart. Granted, it’s the wrong Intent, and the wrong words, but just by virtue of the fact that Gavilar was finally speaking from his own heart, he was worlds closer to the First Ideal than any fake-out attempt he’s ever made.
Even the next thing Stormdaddy says. So close, yet so far. The entirely wrong sentiment… but at least a sentiment. Not just trying to brute force a password.
I may have missed something, but the most interesting bit to me was the stormfather wanting to bring back the Voidbringers. Why would the real stormfather want to start another desolation?
He doesn’t necessarily want to, he’s just hanging out with Gavilar. He might not believe Gavilar can. After all, he doesn’t.
We know that Stormdaddy is forced to find people, pass along visions, and hunt for a Bondsmith. From Words of Radiance, however, it seems like at this stage he doesn’t want to. So spending time with a man he believes will never be a Bondsmith fits the task he was given by Honor without risking actually finding a Bondsmith, which he doesn’t want to do.
And even if he does, note that he’s looking for a Champion. In the Visions, Honor says that rather than risk defeat again, Odium might agree to a contest of Champions. So perhaps Stormdaddy wants to bring the Voidbringers back, because otherwise he can’t have his contest and finally end this.
Be careful if you’re like me and have only read Stormlight and not any other Cosmere works yet. There are some spoilers here. Awesome stuff otherwise!
Oh yeah, you should totally read everything else, Brandon said at the Mistborn: Lost Metal release that his books were going to have a lot more cross-overs.
I think it’s finally time for Brandon to reveal (hopefully in W&T) just how much time has passed since Warbreaker, and what exactly Vasher (& Vivenna) have been up to in the time between. I want some Vasher/Zahel POV chapters (or at least an interlude).
Vasher being Gavilar’s secret is such an interesting detail. We know him as one of the five scholars, and if he can create Lifeless and Nightblood, there’s no reason he couldn’t figure out Voidlight and Antilight as well. Also brings new meaning to why Vivenna is chasing him.
My random thoughts:
Lyndsey asks why Kelsier wants Kelek, but I’m pretty sure Kelek answered that – he knows where BAM is hidden, and Kelsier wants to find her.
I think Kelek blaming himself for the fall of the Radiants has to do with him being among those who gave the idea to bind BAM (I think it’s been stated that Ishar was also likely involved in this) and this was one of the leading causes of the Recreance.
@Bob also said this, but Vasher wasn’t making voidlight, he was making anti-voidlight. I imagine having perfect pitch helped a ton with this (compared to Navani’s struggles). His involvement doesn’t worry me too much as, like Navani, I think he was primarily drawn to the task due to his scholastic nature.
Finally, count me as one who thinks this is actually the Stormfather.
I am fairly certain that the sphere that Gavilar gave Szeth was anti-Stormlight. Because Szeth gave the sphere to Navani in RoW and her scholars did an experiment where they mixed stormlight with it and it exploded.
I found it interesting that Vasher, aka Swordmaster Zahel, is the first one to discover negative Stormlight. I wonder why he was looking for it. Perhaps he wants it for one of the same reasons that Raboniel wanted it and that is to end the war. We know from Warbreaker that he, Vasher, actively is trying to stop the coming war on Nautlis, without really cheering for either side. I wonder if he has a similar motivation here, his God name is Warbreaker after all.
I really like how the Stormfather sees the good in Dalinar, even when it would be hard to see it. Perhaps he sees Dalinars honored Oaths and not so much the murders at the rift.
The Stormfather calling Gavilar his champion feels like it could imply that Gavilar would be Odium’s Champion. We don’t know exactly how the Fused were made and if a human can become a Fused. But could Odium have taken the cognitive shadow of Gavilar and turned him into a Fused or something similar? I am not 100% sold on this theory and Brandon could have put this here to throw us off from who the real Champion will be, which I believe it to be Elhokar. I believe that Elhokar is alive, a Fused with the surge of regrowth could have resurrected him just after Adolin and team left the area. Though a ‘Fused’ version of Gavilar would be good too.
The Stormfather acting the way he does makes me wonder if he takes up some of the personality of the person he is talking to/considering bonding. The Stormfather’s attitude and the way he talks with Gavilar is very similar to Gavilar’s own. Grand plans, a bit of smugness, and derision toward others (when he rejects Gavilar’s words, Stormfather almost sounds sarcastic).
Then when the Stormfather bonds Dalinar, the Stormfather seems to speak with nobility, humility, and utmost honesty.
I wonder if Stormfather can tell lies because Gavilar can tell lies. Conversly, Stormfather is now honest because Dalinar is honest.
Think about the moment in Oathbringer when Navani asks Dalinar to confirm with the Stormfather that his bond did not affect the boon/curse from Nightwatcher. The Stormfather is annoyed and asks why he must repeat himself. A VERY Dalinar like response. One that I’m not sure he would have made to Gavilar, if Gavilar had done the same. In the prologue, Gavilar has clearly talked to the Stormfather and asked all of these questions before, but Stormfather just keeps talking rather than being annoyed at having to repeat himself.
I will also note that prologue Stormfather is much more verbose than Dalinar’s Stormfather. A reflection of a verbose Gavilar and a straight to the point Dalinar?
Do spren change their aspects according to the people they bond? I’m sure that humans (or parshendi) are changed by the bond. Syl goes to great lengths to learn what Kaladin in feeling with his depression.
So it could be a fake Stormfather, or one that changes his personality to the person he is bonding (or simply changes naturally by association.)
Then look at
Except we see the “dalinar” personatly before he bonded with Dalinar, with Kalain and Eshonai, so why would he be acting like that if his personatly changes. He also was not actaully bonded with Galivar at all.
I’m really ready for this book. All the YouTube speculation videos are whipping up the frenzy.
As noted, this is a bit different than the earlier prolog release. Vasher could get returned !
The fakefather definitely isn’t the stormfather, I have been saying this since I read it. THere are too many inconsistencies. The problem is, I have three theories who he is. 1. Odium trying to get Galivar to be a champion. SImple enough to read, but there are some inconsistences there too, like him panicking about the Hearld dying. how can it be too soon when that’s exactly what he wants, especially since Odium has been written as being very patient. he knows he going to be released, he’s immortal, he has plenty of time. 2. Ishar. That one might be the most likely, since Ishar believes himself to be the last shred of Honor, he would be able to have access to the visions since he was a bondsmith, and he would know enough of the stormfather in order to play as him. The paniking of the healrds death would also fit him being Ishar, because he does say “The Oathbond, they must not know” He wants the heralds to believe that the Final desolation is not coming, we see that with Nale, so he was probably distracted trying to block the signal from reaching the others. 3 and finally, one that might not be true, but Sja-anat. she may have been just following orders from Odium at this time, but this event with Galivar might have been the one where she started to change. My evidence that it’s her is when the “stormfather” changes from a hazy image to a “face, with white voidless eyes.” Sja-anat’s specific description is that she has those same eyes.
I still think this will end with Dalinar becoming an immortal evil enslaved space pirate captain. Maybe Captain of the ship that is after Sigzil.
My problem with the Fake!Stormfather theory is the visions. While it’s not impossible that someone like Ishar could have gained access to the visions through connection mechanics and spiritual mumbo jumbo, I have a hard time accepting that the Stormfather would just let someone else have them without major repercussions, as it was kind of his last duty entrusted to him by Honor. Letting Ishar or someone else gain access to them and just accepting it seems out of character for him. I mean, you think he’d at least say something like, “I hate Ishar – he meddles in things beyond his concern” when Dalinar was asking about him. Instead he speaks of Ishar at least politely. Again, I’ll say it’s not impossible that someone else has access to the visions – I just think it’s unlikely that someone would have and the Stormfather would not have at least dropped a hint about it over his relationship with Dalinar.
it could be that the stormfather did send the visions to galivar , and fakefather found out and interfered. and sent their own and he woudln’t interfere. He just saw it as “doing his duty.” espieclaly when he’s pissed at the humans at this point. It didn’t matter to him who got the visions, as long as he sent them. It would be far more out of character of saying ” I will not bother with your family again” and than proceeds to send the visions to Dalinar. That is far more out of character. Remeber, stormfather didn’t’ talk to Dalinar at all in the visions, he only sent them. He only started to talk to dalinar when the everstorm finally arrived and Stormfather sent the highstorm.
I am having some trouble posting a very long post, so breaking up into chunks…
I spent a lot of time wavering over whether the spheres Gavilar showed the Heralds were regular voidlight or anti-voidlight. A lot of the dialogue suggested anti- (“weapon”, “Light that could somehow kill the Voidbringers”), but it was specifically named as “Voidlight” by Kalak and Gavilar. I guess including the “anti-” there would be too much of an explicit reveal, or something? Regardless, the description as “glowed with a dark, almost inverted violet light. Impossible light; a color that should not exist.” seems more compatible with anti-, given the descriptions in RoW as having a faint “warping of the air around it” (when Navani first created it).
I had managed to not listen to the previous reading of the earlier version of the prologue (I did not want to be sitting on anticipation for the intervening period), so the speculation of Fake-stormfather was new to me. I did not find the portrayal so jarring as to be obviously fake on my first read, but there are some pretty strong arguments being made here that make me consider it seriously. My main arguments against fake-stormfather would be that his behavior did indeed change between what we see here and what we see later, and that there are some rough edges with all of the “fake”s proposed. As far as stormfather changing, I see that as coming about in a general sense because he does not want to repeat mistakes and more specifically because he finds himself bound by Honor’s instructions to end up giving the visions to Dalinar despite having almost sworn an oath to himself to never get involved with the Kholin family again. A lot of strange things can happen when a powerful entity has two conflicting objectives with equal priority (think HAL 9000), so it seems plausible to me to take what’s presented at face value. As for the various potential fakes offered, they have to get all of: some Connection to Gavilar to offer the visions in the first place, knowing about the visions, knowing when a Herald died, wanting to conceal that death of a Herald, reacting positively to “Make me a Herald. I need it”, and some access to Fortune to have advance knowledge of Gavilar’s death. I don’t think anyone has presented all of those tied up nicely (yet).
In a related vein I found it interesting that Stormfather says immortality wears on men and women … would it also wear on spren (i.e., himself)?
The tie to the Kholin family also seemed like a thread worth pulling on. What would make the Kholin family special at that time? Adolin has done nothing much, and stormfather obviously isn’t acknowledging Dalinar specifically at this time. It seems that when stormfather made that remark, Jasnah had attracted a spren, but only just barely (recall that per WoR prologue she was kind of freaking out at the misbehaving shadow, which we should now expect was Ivory in a proto-bonded state). It is pushing plausibility somewhat to think that the proto-bond had been around for long enough before then to be a factor in stormfather picking Gavilar based on the family relationship. So … why the Kholin family?
I think it’s so strong a portrayal that Gavilar is a horrible person that I won’t go through the effort of enumerating the ways.
That said, it was very interesting to me that Gavilar already knew about an Oathgate on the shattered plains so early and that he sought Urithiru for ancient records, just as Jasnah did — Jasnah took some 5 more years to get to a similar place, if I remember correctly. It also raises the question of what other secret societies had this kind of knowledge at the same time…
It was a huge tease for Sanderson to write that drunkard-and-depressed Dalinar felt a “kinship” for the singers. Why?? What does this mean for the future??
Maybe a bit of pushing the boundary of plausibility — how exactly is Tearim supposed to surreptitiously lead Dalinar to booze while wearing the King’s own shardplate? It seems like wearing the King’s shardplate is going to get you super-noticed and make people wonder about the King possibly manipulating his brother by using his drukenness.
It was interesting to hear Thaidakar say that “to be honest, I don’t know that we did much. That tide was coming regardless.” Those were the plans to bring voidlight/voidspren over to Roshar from Braize and force a Desolation, but it seems like this is acknowledging that there were other forces afoot, perhaps such as the “death of a Herald” that stormfather notes being Shallan killing Chanarach who then promptly gave in to the torture and engaged the normal process of starting a Desolation.
What would Kalak mean when he says:
> Before things went wrong.” He ran his hand through his thinning hair. Before… I made them… go wrong…”
What did he do to make things go wrong? The prelude in WoK was very clear that Jezrien was telling Kalak the plan to abandon the Oathpact, not the other way around. And the Heralds shouldn’t have been around for the false)Desolation that ultimately led to the fall of Ba-Ado-Mishram and the Recreance, right? What other big events are there that would count as “things going wrong” and could be caused by a Herald?
But then again he does also say:
> “I know where she is hidden,” Restares whispered. “Where her soul is.
> Ba-Ado-Mishram. Granter of Forms. The one who could rival Him. The one… we
> betrayed.”
I assume that we’re to take “Him” as being Odium … but how/why would the Heralds have betrayed an Unmade? (Which is to say that maybe he was involved with the events I mention above after all.) One possibility is that the Heralds were involved in the plan to trap her, or maybe even incited her to try the act in the first place. That requires some way of communicating, which does not seem to have been indicated or even teased at so far, but remains in my mind an open possibility. Another possibility is that the betrayal of Mishram was in allowing her to become Unmade in the first place. A super-tinfoil theory: she was the third bondsmith spren and when she got Unmade the slow decline in bondsmith numbers began. It’s also interesting to think of the Heralds as having betrayed someone other than Taln in a way that is so prominent as to be “the one we betrayed”.
> He had found a way to ferry Voidspren through Shadesmar to this world using
> gemstones and aluminum boxes.
I think I lost track: do we believe that this is the route that Ulim took to get to Roshar?
I was also very interested to see Taravangian in the Sons of Honor meeting. I saw Paige theorize that he was shopping around for secret societies before creating his own, but I don’t think we have any reason to prefer that explanation over him attending that meeting based on the Diagram’s guidance. He knew just what to say in order to get Gavilar to open up about the everstorm coming, after all…
Paige asks what Kelsier would want with Mishram. A couple possibilities come to me, though I’m not sure I am particularly enamored with either: (1) as one “who could rival Him” she’s supposed to be as powerful as Odium and Kelsier wants the power (not going to say *why* he wants the power), (2) he’s still looking to move freely around the Cosmere despite being highly Invested, and if the above bits about some communication between the Heralds and Mishram pan out, she would have had some insights into that. (But how would Kelsier know that?)
For her other questions, I basically have only the same questions, but no answers.
Wow no comment on Stormfaker? Two years ago when this was released EVERYONE was like okay this is obviously not him haha this is Ishar or at least someone else hacking in. There’s like 10 different red flags he even sympathizes with heralds which he didn’t do till bonding Dalinar, and says he’s the biggest fool of them all. Ishar became God king right after this.
And the herald that died is 1000% Chana, shallans mom. It happened the same month and the chapter makes a point to mention her and her red hair haha. Love how clueless it turned out he was to all the secrets haha. Kelsier cameo as a Seon in a trenchcoat was just too awesome
Rushu is Rushur Kris y’all! Isn’t Khriss the person who is writing the Ars Arcanum for all the Stormlight books? She’s the scholar from Silverlight? Did anyone else notice this or am I reaching?
Rushur Kris was mentioned by name in Navani’s POV of the prologue, as a famous artifabrian that was in attendance but whom she couldn’t go spend time with because of her duty as a hostess. (And I thought that was mentioned earlier in the comments, but don’t see it now.) I don’t remember discussion here of the potential Khriss connection, but my intuition (not fed by any hard data) would be that Khriss would not be positioning themself as a prominent figure (atrifabrian) and thus that they are different people.
Ok, here we go! I know I’ve got some ways to go in order to catch up but I still have a few months, right? :) (Plus I typically get the book from the library and have to wait for the hold to come in any way…).
My husband has been reading all the cosmere stuff and he’s on RoW now and I’m trying to get him to finish!
Nothing to add theory wise, but am I the only person who gets kind of this weird existential angst when I read stuff like this? When there are all these secrets upon secrets, I always wonder, if I was a character in this universe, how would I even know who to trust and what the truth is, haha.
Gavilar is slimy although he seems to have a few tiny shreds of humanity that he denies and at least seems *somewhat* concerned with stopping the Everstorm. What I’m still not clear on (and may need to refresh myself on) is the timeline of events. Like, did Stormfather (or faker) approach him FIRST with the visions? Did this relate to his conquest of Alethkar? What made him start looking into things like investiture offworld or all these other worldhoppers? And what the heck is Kelsier’s endgame here???
His plan to just keep coming back was laughably simple to me. I suppose in his worldview – where war and warriors are a path of honor and virtue – it kinda makes sense? Maybe if they kept fighting they’d get good enough to eventually beat them? (I mean, we know that wouldn’t ACTUALLY happen, especially since civilization is repeatedly wiped out and progress is lost.)